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Joshua vs. Klitschko (SPOILERS) (No Public Streams)


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#41 BrutUalBK

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 10:06 PM

I disagree that Wilder is some skilled Heavyweight fighter.

 

I also had Gerald Washington winning the first 4 rounds of their fight. 

 

Wilder was inactive and largely missing when he was actually throwing in those rounds and Washington was out-Boxing him to be honest.

 

Of course, all it takes is 1 punch, but this discussion is largely devolving into Wilder's best chance being to land 1 big punch and KO Joshua.

 

In Joshua's case, it will be trying to systematically wear Wilder down.

 

The Wlad victory by Joshua is still light years ahead of anything that Wilder has achieved. At this point, the best fighter that Wilder has faced is who ? Stiverne ? Eric Molina ? 

 

That alone makes you feel like Joshua is just a better overall fighter than Wilder and that he would be the odds on favorite to win. 

 

All of the faults that Joshua has are doubly worse for Wilder, when you think about the fact that in the last few years he really hasn't improved much at all. 

 

A guy who has improved steadily doesn't get out-Boxed by Gerald Washington. 

Where did I say that Wilder was some skilled HW fighter??  Read it again and then tell me please.  I said he has better skills than Joshua, it should be obvious.

 

Joshua doesn't know how to throw a counterpunch to save his life, I bet dude can't even spell counterpunch.  You picked the wrong guy to compare Wilder against in his opponent Washington, because if you are going to go there then you have to go with quadruple the amount of flaws that the Senior Citizen 40 year old Kilts was able to expose in Joshua.

 

All of the faults that Joshua has are quadruple of what Wilder has.  When have you ever saw Joshua throw a double jab, change levels, counterpunch, use angles, throw a decent left hook instead of that lame left hook he throws?

I could go on and on regarding how much lameness is evident in Joshua.  I know that Wilder has flaws but he's been boxing a lot less than Joshua and Washington and though he's been putting everyone to sleep, in terms of actual rounds/ring experience he doesn't have much and is learning as he fights.

 

So don't confuse the fact that I said that Wilder is showing more wrinkles in his fight game than Joshua and equate that as I'm saying he's (Wilder) is some skilled HW because I'm not, I'm just stating the obvious he has over Joshua who was hit far more vs Klitschko than WIlder was vs Washington.


Edited by BrutUalBK, 11 May 2017 - 09:53 PM.

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#42 MaxPayne

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 10:21 PM

Wait, people actually think that you can put Gerald Washington and Wladimir in the same sentence ? 

 

Did I read that right ?

 

That comparison is insane. Wladimir may be in the twilight of his career, but he's still a better overall fighter than all of the Heavyweights not named Fury, Joshua and Wilder.

 

I would even contend that the Wladimir who showed up against Joshua is good enough to beat Wilder, who was out-Boxed by a schmuck like Gerald Washington for 4 rounds.

 

Whatever people think about Joshua's Boxing ability, it was good enough to negate 2 versions of Wladimir. 

 

Wladimir's plan was to Box from the outside with the focus on winning the battle of the jabs. Joshua negated that strategy for 5 rounds and dropped Wlad.

 

Then, the 2nd version of Wlad was coming forward to looking to put punches together. Joshua got dropped but then came back to drop Wlad another 2 times and then stop him.

 

Whatever people want to say about angles, counters and double jabs is immaterial, because Joshua was good enough to out-Box 2 versions of Wlad on the same night, drop him 3 times and then force a stoppage.

 

Wilder hasn't fought anyone even nearly close to Wladimir. Joshua not only beat Wladimir but dropped him 3 times and stopped him rather brutally.

 

The logic simply isn't there. People lose a lot of credibility with these crazy comparisons.

 

I maintain that Joshua is a better fighter than Wilder, has beaten much, much better competition than Wilder and would likely win a match between the 2 fighters.



#43 sduck

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:05 AM

Joshua has faster foot/legspeed than Wilder??  Really??  That dude is slow as f*ck.

Get off your hater goggles for one second

 

Wait, people actually think that you can put Gerald Washington and Wladimir in the same sentence ? 

 

Did I read that right ?

 

That comparison is insane. Wladimir may be in the twilight of his career, but he's still a better overall fighter than all of the Heavyweights not named Fury, Joshua and Wilder.

 

I would even contend that the Wladimir who showed up against Joshua is good enough to beat Wilder, who was out-Boxed by a schmuck like Gerald Washington for 4 rounds.

 

Whatever people think about Joshua's Boxing ability, it was good enough to negate 2 versions of Wladimir. 

 

Wladimir's plan was to Box from the outside with the focus on winning the battle of the jabs. Joshua negated that strategy for 5 rounds and dropped Wlad.

 

Then, the 2nd version of Wlad was coming forward to looking to put punches together. Joshua got dropped but then came back to drop Wlad another 2 times and then stop him.

 

Whatever people want to say about angles, counters and double jabs is immaterial, because Joshua was good enough to out-Box 2 versions of Wlad on the same night, drop him 3 times and then force a stoppage.

 

Wilder hasn't fought anyone even nearly close to Wladimir. Joshua not only beat Wladimir but dropped him 3 times and stopped him rather brutally.

 

The logic simply isn't there. People lose a lot of credibility with these crazy comparisons.

 

I maintain that Joshua is a better fighter than Wilder, has beaten much, much better competition than Wilder and would likely win a match between the 2 fighters.

This is one thing that annoys me more than anything when it comes to combat sports. What is a "level"? Why do so many people describe this like a anime cartoon? People don't have power levels. They have tier levels. Fighters have abilities, attributes, and styles. This is what makes the difference in every fight. Some fighters have a style that is hard to adapt to, some have abilities that puts them above everyone else, and others have attributes that makes them destroy their competition. But countless times again, no matter what tier they are, we see A level fighters getting exposed by B levels, for example, because there is no power gap. It's a simple matter of either you can do it or you can't, either you can withstand this or you can't, stuff like that. There is no, "this guy beat this guy, so that means he's on a power level way above this other guy". We can compare and easily assume he's a tier above, due to having superior abilities or attributes. But we can't say a certain guy is invincible towards a certain bracket of his competition just because he beat a certain guy. There's a reason why people have to keep reminding us, "this is Boxing, anything can happen". Because countless times have we seen a guy who's clearly a level above another guy, but then end up looking bad against them and whatnot, because there was something that fighter had that gave them problems.

 

I honestly can't even fully judge this version of Wlad. It's been so long since he's fought guys his size, and he's post-retirement stage. Wlad appeared so gunshy against Tyson Fury, and at many moments appeared so against Joshua. He opened up more against Joshua but still couldn't pull the trigger when he had Joshua hurt and visually out of there. Joshua beats a bunch of "bums" and barely makes it out of there against a guy that should have retired years ago. Wilder destroys everyone in his way, bums, contenders, looks bad against one guy, now all of a sudden Joshua is the invincible in comparison. That logic doesn't hold up, no matter how you put it. Washington is not just some schmuck, dude was incredibly athletic, and had a pretty decent boxing IQ. He didn't show the heart to compete with Wilder, but he showed the skills. People were sleeping on the guy (which I've mentioned him before that he was underrated) and act all surprised when Wilder couldn't do shit but swing like a buffoon. The more I watch boxing the more I see and have to keep reminding myself that hype don't win fights, it's about what a fighter can do, and what he can't do. At the end of the day, he's going to look bad at times, and he's going to look good most of others. How he matches up against the other hyped up fighter is purely based on what he can do, and what he can't do. 

 

Hell I remember when Wlad-Fury happened. I was one of the only people that was giving Fury a chance. People were saying, "oh he got floored by this guy, or he fights like a little guy for his size", and I was pointing out that it was more of a 50-50 fight than people thought, because Fury still had lots of things that could give Wlad trouble. People treated that fight like an upset, and I didn't see it as such. I thought Wlad gave a surprisingly piss poor performance, but I wasn't surprised Fury beat him.

 

Both Wilder and Joshua have things that will give each other problems. I personally have Wilder winning the fight, only because like I've said, I think Joshua is more vulnerable, there's more holes in his game, despite him having more promising abilities than Wilder. I don't care if people pick Joshua to win that fight, anything can happen, but when I see people start saying, "Joshua will destroy Wilder. Wilder isn't on Joshua's level."

That's when I start to think, "are we looking at the same Joshua? Are we both watching Boxing?"

People get caught up in the hype, and that's fine and all, because what's a sport without excitement, but you can't rationally sit there and say that Joshua is some god gifted level athlete in comparison to Wilder. Not that you directly said that, but I see so many people implying this, and it rustles me.


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#44 BrutUalBK

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 10:03 PM

Wait, people actually think that you can put Gerald Washington and Wladimir in the same sentence ? 

 

Did I read that right ?

 

That comparison is insane. Wladimir may be in the twilight of his career, but he's still a better overall fighter than all of the Heavyweights not named Fury, Joshua and Wilder.

 

I would even contend that the Wladimir who showed up against Joshua is good enough to beat Wilder, who was out-Boxed by a schmuck like Gerald Washington for 4 rounds.

 

Whatever people think about Joshua's Boxing ability, it was good enough to negate 2 versions of Wladimir. 

 

Wladimir's plan was to Box from the outside with the focus on winning the battle of the jabs. Joshua negated that strategy for 5 rounds and dropped Wlad.

 

Then, the 2nd version of Wlad was coming forward to looking to put punches together. Joshua got dropped but then came back to drop Wlad another 2 times and then stop him.

 

Whatever people want to say about angles, counters and double jabs is immaterial, because Joshua was good enough to out-Box 2 versions of Wlad on the same night, drop him 3 times and then force a stoppage.

 

Wilder hasn't fought anyone even nearly close to Wladimir. Joshua not only beat Wladimir but dropped him 3 times and stopped him rather brutally.

 

The logic simply isn't there. People lose a lot of credibility with these crazy comparisons.

 

I maintain that Joshua is a better fighter than Wilder, has beaten much, much better competition than Wilder and would likely win a match between the 2 fighters.

A 40 year old slow Wlad was beaten by a much younger and stronger Joshua in a long distance fight, who's surprised by that outcome??  Not me, I even picked Joshua to win so for stupid ass SDuck to say I have Hater goggles on is just plain foolishness and his need to get back at me for disagreeing with his statement of believing Joshua is faster than Wilder (which it's obvious he's not).

 

Yes, I admit Wlad is better than Washington, but then again, when did I ever compare the two of them head on??  I simply stated how each of them was able to perform against Joshua and WIlder and anyone can see that Joshua got hit more.....everyone but you that is!!

 

Comparisons aside, this isn't about that, it's about the skillset that is sorely lacking in Joshua regardless of how well he fared in the end vs Klits.  Joshua is just lucky this wasn't a 31 year old Klits then we wouldn't even be talking about Joshua.

 

I'm not exactly why you set aside the fact that I've stated how limited Wilder's skills are (which are still better than Joshua's) and how he is learning on the job despite entering boxing at a later stage in life than Joshua.

 

We will simply have to agree to disagree, you think Joshua is something special because he beat a 40 year old man on a decline and I don't.

 

Let's let it rest at that, my money will be on Wilder when they do meet because it should be evident by now that Joshua isn't as confident in his ownself as you and others here are, otherwise he would've called out Deontay who was at his fight and wants him now rather than calling out a fat, out of shape Fury who was at home eating donuts watching the fight and haven't been in the ring since his garbage performance vs Klits.



#45 BrutUalBK

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 10:08 PM

Get off your hater goggles for one second

 

This is one thing that annoys me more than anything when it comes to combat sports. What is a "level"? Why do so many people describe this like a anime cartoon? People don't have power levels. They have tier levels. Fighters have abilities, attributes, and styles. This is what makes the difference in every fight. Some fighters have a style that is hard to adapt to, some have abilities that puts them above everyone else, and others have attributes that makes them destroy their competition. But countless times again, no matter what tier they are, we see A level fighters getting exposed by B levels, for example, because there is no power gap. It's a simple matter of either you can do it or you can't, either you can withstand this or you can't, stuff like that. There is no, "this guy beat this guy, so that means he's on a power level way above this other guy". We can compare and easily assume he's a tier above, due to having superior abilities or attributes. But we can't say a certain guy is invincible towards a certain bracket of his competition just because he beat a certain guy. There's a reason why people have to keep reminding us, "this is Boxing, anything can happen". Because countless times have we seen a guy who's clearly a level above another guy, but then end up looking bad against them and whatnot, because there was something that fighter had that gave them problems.

 

I honestly can't even fully judge this version of Wlad. It's been so long since he's fought guys his size, and he's post-retirement stage. Wlad appeared so gunshy against Tyson Fury, and at many moments appeared so against Joshua. He opened up more against Joshua but still couldn't pull the trigger when he had Joshua hurt and visually out of there. Joshua beats a bunch of "bums" and barely makes it out of there against a guy that should have retired years ago. Wilder destroys everyone in his way, bums, contenders, looks bad against one guy, now all of a sudden Joshua is the invincible in comparison. That logic doesn't hold up, no matter how you put it. Washington is not just some schmuck, dude was incredibly athletic, and had a pretty decent boxing IQ. He didn't show the heart to compete with Wilder, but he showed the skills. People were sleeping on the guy (which I've mentioned him before that he was underrated) and act all surprised when Wilder couldn't do shit but swing like a buffoon. The more I watch boxing the more I see and have to keep reminding myself that hype don't win fights, it's about what a fighter can do, and what he can't do. At the end of the day, he's going to look bad at times, and he's going to look good most of others. How he matches up against the other hyped up fighter is purely based on what he can do, and what he can't do. 

 

Hell I remember when Wlad-Fury happened. I was one of the only people that was giving Fury a chance. People were saying, "oh he got floored by this guy, or he fights like a little guy for his size", and I was pointing out that it was more of a 50-50 fight than people thought, because Fury still had lots of things that could give Wlad trouble. People treated that fight like an upset, and I didn't see it as such. I thought Wlad gave a surprisingly piss poor performance, but I wasn't surprised Fury beat him.

 

Both Wilder and Joshua have things that will give each other problems. I personally have Wilder winning the fight, only because like I've said, I think Joshua is more vulnerable, there's more holes in his game, despite him having more promising abilities than Wilder. I don't care if people pick Joshua to win that fight, anything can happen, but when I see people start saying, "Joshua will destroy Wilder. Wilder isn't on Joshua's level."

That's when I start to think, "are we looking at the same Joshua? Are we both watching Boxing?"

People get caught up in the hype, and that's fine and all, because what's a sport without excitement, but you can't rationally sit there and say that Joshua is some god gifted level athlete in comparison to Wilder. Not that you directly said that, but I see so many people implying this, and it rustles me.

Who said anything about a fighter having "power" levels??  I said changing levels, now maybe you don't understand exactly what that is because you've probably never been in a ring and laced em up before so I will chalk that up to simple ignorance.

 

Fighters do still have levels though, there's no way I would've said that Gatti was on the same level with Mayweather in terms of skills, so again...I will leave that up to you to make your page long argument about "Levels" and what you actually think that means.

 

You said I'm hating on Joshua when I actually like him and picked him over Wlad but somehow the fact that I think Wilder shows better skills and speed than him equates to something so simple-minded with you as "Hate".

That's kinda childish or immature to think that way but either way it's a false statement from you.

 

All I see is the differences in what they're able to do inside the squared circle and believe that Wilder is better, if you still want to classify that as Hate, then by all means go ahead and tickle your own fancy.



#46 MaxPayne

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 10:14 PM

Hold your horses folks.

 

My evaluation of Joshua is RELATIVE to Wilder.

 

Just because I think that he's a better overall fighter than Wilder doesn't make him an automatic Top 5 or even Top 10 Pound for Pound level fighter.

 

Joshua is far from a perfect fighter and has plenty to work on, starting with building more lean muscle instead of this beach body that he has.

 

However, Wilder is significantly further removed from being a perfect fighter than Joshua is and that's the only point that I'm making.

 

They're similar fighters (big and powerful), but I think Joshua's skills are somewhat better and he's certainly beaten better competition than Wilder has at this point in their careers.



#47 sduck

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 11:28 PM

Who said anything about a fighter having "power" levels??  I said changing levels, now maybe you don't understand exactly what that is because you've probably never been in a ring and laced em up before so I will chalk that up to simple ignorance.

 

Fighters do still have levels though, there's no way I would've said that Gatti was on the same level with Mayweather in terms of skills, so again...I will leave that up to you to make your page long argument about "Levels" and what you actually think that means.

 

You said I'm hating on Joshua when I actually like him and picked him over Wlad but somehow the fact that I think Wilder shows better skills and speed than him equates to something so simple-minded with you as "Hate".

That's kinda childish or immature to think that way but either way it's a false statement from you.

 

All I see is the differences in what they're able to do inside the squared circle and believe that Wilder is better, if you still want to classify that as Hate, then by all means go ahead and tickle your own fancy.

That essay wasn't towards you. Every post I've seen from you about Joshua has been negative. Whether they all weren't, that's what I've seen from you. Correlate that with saying Joshua is slower than Wilder. Immediately made me think you weren't thinking rationally. 

 

Anyway, Joshua throws short and quick punches, while Wilder extends his arms more and throws more often and with more ferocity so that's probably why in some ways he appears faster. Wilder definitely has faster foot/body speed, pacing is overall more intense than Joshua's. Joshua just seems to fight more relaxed and waits for his shots, while Wilder is constantly trying to move the pace. Overall there may not be enough examples to entirely say who's indefinitely faster yet. Kinda reminds me of Mayweather-Pacquiao for the longest people debated who was faster, and that debate was finally solved.


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#48 MAHDI

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 09:04 PM

Joshua and Wilder get tired quickly...whoever has the most wind will come out on top...both are chinny...both flawed...Joshua is too muscle bound and slower...advantage Wilder...

Edited by MAHDI, 12 May 2017 - 09:05 PM.

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#49 Cshel86

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:07 PM

Joshua and Wilder get tired quickly...whoever has the most wind will come out on top...both are chinny...both flawed...Joshua is too muscle bound and slower...advantage Wilder...

That's why I don't really enjoy watching HW boxing, after 2-3 rounds, they're gasping for air and sluggish. It always takes one punch and the other guy's on queer street, never fails in HW boxing. Lol



#50 BrutUalBK

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:57 AM

It's funny how you keep overlooking the more obvious flaws in Joshua's game and somehow saying he is more a complete fighter than Wilder when I spelled out all his flaws, so with that said I'm going to show you both fighter's flaws, starting with your boy Joshua:

 

Joshua's flaws:  Slow foot/leg speed, no angles on punching or setting up for punches, doesn't tuck his chin/too straight up, jab is flimsy at best, at worst he pushes it instead of snapping it out there, he lacks any ability to stop punches from landing on him, his left hook is somewhat lacking in real snap, he has zero counterpunching ability, throws a telegraphed right hand all the time.

 

Wilder's flaws:  Too mechanical/he doesn't appear to do things naturally, too stiff, defense has huge holes in it, doesn't double the jab enough or at all, is limited on his combination punches/rarely throws combos, doesn't always fight using his size or controlling the distance between himself and his opponent, has a tendency to move back in a straight line instead of side stepping his opponent when they are coming forward leaving himself in the line of fire to take punches instead of being in a position to counterpunch.

 

Both men have severe flaws that would've gotten them dusted by the likes of HWs like Lewis, Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield in their heyday but to their credit they both have great power in their right hand and Deontay's left appears to be more powerful than that of Joshua's, they both seem to have really good chins from the shots I've seen them both take, neither man appeared like they would be out of a fight and recovered quickly, both appear to have heart and a willingness to want to face the best (except Joshua called out Fury who is out of the sport when Deontay was at the fight waiting to be called out).

 

I don't know how you guys feel but when a boxer is at your fight and he appears to be next in line then he should've been called to the ring like Canelo did GGG and told "you're next"!!

 

We didn't see that from Joshua towards Wilder, this tells me that even Anthony knows he's not ready for Wilder yet and that in itself should speak volumes to all of us as true boxing fans, or we can simply look the other way and pretend that it means nothing.

 

We called Canelo a Ducker for not facing or calling out Triple G but somehow on this forum with certain people then I'm labeled a "Hater" for speaking the truth but yet we won't dare call Joshua  a Ducker even though he clearly avoided calling out Wilder and instead opted to call out an out of boxing Tyson Fury.

 

If it walks like a Duck..........y'all know the rest!!


Edited by BrutUalBK, 13 May 2017 - 02:00 AM.





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