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PPV@6PM(PT)/9PM(ET)-Canelo vs Chavez-SPOILERS (No Public Streams)


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#101 MaxPayne

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:37 PM

Is he elite though? I remember Ben and V going AT IT back in 2013 on the FH Radio show, when it came to Canelo and elite status, lol. 

 

I also remember us having a HUGE debate about ATG status and what it takes. I swear, if I could find that thread. 

 

The "Elite Fighter" discussion is a truly complicated one. What defines being "elite" ?

 

To me, it's to look at every weight class and see if there is a fighter who such a bad man, so talented, disciplined, skilled and experienced that he's nigh unbeatable.

 

On top of being nearly unbeatable in his weight class, he's so good that he could drop a weight class or jump a weight class and most likely, even though being a more limited version of himself, could still wreak havoc.

 

Lastly, they've generally had at least "defining victory" over a top tier opponent.

 

"Once-In-A-Generation Level Elite" is the uber version of this, and involves fighters like Floyd or Manny who were able to jump weight classes time and time again and still put ass whoopings on larger men.

 

Yes, Manny may have had steroid help but this is the Barry Bonds argument all over again: all of these motherfuckers are juicing (Bonds was blasting pitchers who were ABSOLUTELY roided to the gills), and Manny still beat they asses. 

 

So now, looking at the current fighters, who are the "Elites" by this definition?

 

In my humble opinion, the current unquestionably elite fighters are: Andre Ward, Guillermo Rigondeaux, Roman Gonzalez, Vasyl Lomachenko and Terrence Crawford

 

The current "contenders" for Elite Status are as follows:

 

Saul Alvarez, Gennady Golovkin, Leo Santa Cruz, Sergey Kovalev, Manny Pacquiao, Keith Thurman and Errol Spence

 

These guys seem to have what it takes, but they're missing a marquee victory that would put them over the top. Whoever wins between Alvarez and GGG gets into that elite group.

 

If Santa Cruz wins his trilogy fight against Frampton, then I think he gets into that group.

 

If Kovalev beats Ward, then he joins Andre in that group.

 

Manny is a shade of his former self, but if he beat a young star of a fighter such as Crawford, then we may have to put him back in the Elite category. 

 

Keef Thurman has a marquee victory (Garcia), but he needs work in the skills department.

 

Errol Spence, if he beats Kell Brook, may be essentially in that group as well.

 

Just my crazy opinion though, so don't put too much stock into it haha. 


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#102 Cshel86

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:16 PM

 

The "Elite Fighter" discussion is a truly complicated one. What defines being "elite" ?

 

To me, it's to look at every weight class and see if there is a fighter who such a bad man, so talented, disciplined, skilled and experienced that he's nigh unbeatable.

 

On top of being nearly unbeatable in his weight class, he's so good that he could drop a weight class or jump a weight class and most likely, even though being a more limited version of himself, could still wreak havoc.

 

Lastly, they've generally had at least "defining victory" over a top tier opponent.

 

"Once-In-A-Generation Level Elite" is the uber version of this, and involves fighters like Floyd or Manny who were able to jump weight classes time and time again and still put ass whoopings on larger men.

 

Yes, Manny may have had steroid help but this is the Barry Bonds argument all over again: all of these motherfuckers are juicing (Bonds was blasting pitchers who were ABSOLUTELY roided to the gills), and Manny still beat they asses. 

 

So now, looking at the current fighters, who are the "Elites" by this definition?

 

In my humble opinion, the current unquestionably elite fighters are: Andre Ward, Guillermo Rigondeaux, Roman Gonzalez, Vasyl Lomachenko and Terrence Crawford

 

The current "contenders" for Elite Status are as follows:

 

Saul Alvarez, Gennady Golovkin, Leo Santa Cruz, Sergey Kovalev, Manny Pacquiao, Keith Thurman and Errol Spence

 

These guys seem to have what it takes, but they're missing a marquee victory that would put them over the top. Whoever wins between Alvarez and GGG gets into that elite group.

 

If Santa Cruz wins his trilogy fight against Frampton, then I think he gets into that group.

 

If Kovalev beats Ward, then he joins Andre in that group.

 

Manny is a shade of his former self, but if he beat a young star of a fighter such as Crawford, then we may have to put him back in the Elite category. 

 

Keef Thurman has a marquee victory (Garcia), but he needs work in the skills department.

 

Errol Spence, if he beats Kell Brook, may be essentially in that group as well.

 

Just my crazy opinion though, so don't put too much stock into it haha. 

Man I can't argue with this at all. It's crazy how the guys who are runner up to be considered elite, have to fight guys in their same pool. So....does it take that one fighter to beat all (or most) of the fighters in their pool, or just the right guy? It's weird because two of those guys can fight and produce fireworks that raise the bar for elite status, then the cycle starts all over. Lol

 

As for guys like Keith Thurman who just beat Garcia in a "not what everybody thought it would be" fight, it's almost as if he's gonna have to have another big fight in order to get that shot again. Let's say if Pacquiao fight a guy like....hmmm....maybe Matthysse (a big puncher, etc...something for the casual fans to chew on) and looks to be "the man" again (in the casual fans' eyes), would Thurman beating Manny make him the man?

 

As we've discussed numerous times, that elite or ATG status is subjective and can go on forever and ever. 



#103 sduck

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:24 AM

Elite = Guys who visually and notably have a step above the majority of their competition

 

Elites are the top of the totem pole. When the competition gets to its final mark, they are the guys you expect to be there, the guys you always expect to win. The guys who build a fanbase, who are regarded in popularity. The guys who are often talked about and compared against other fighters. Who people often say, "I want to see this guy fight this other guy, will be so hype". When the media and fans are constantly regurgitating their name in in a respectful sense (whether they like them are not), but are constantly comparing them to other fighters, even after they lose fights, then they've reached elite status.

 

ATG = Wildly popular, with a large and heightened sense of accomplishments

 

For one to be an ATG, they have to be wildly favored and known throughout the sports and non-sports world. They are the guys who people idolize, and find as role models, when people look back, they site this person as one of their inspirations. They are the fighters who people and other fighters often look at their fights and say, "This was one of my favorite fights", "I was there when he fought so and so", "That was sensational when he KO'd or beat this guy". They are the tip of the mountain, and are easily favored over all the other elites of their era. They are the fighters who a large amount of people, from generations, just feel a great sense of attachment to. They've forever left their mark, and will never be forgotten. 

 

Of the names listed above, Manny Pacquiao is definitely ATG status. While Canelo, GGG, Ward, Rigondeaux, and Lomachenko are the ones I would say are elite. Canelo and Lomachenko for sure, they both have Ls and people still put them on that pedestal. Someone like Kovalev is only feuding with Ward due to bad backlash, but in the long run, will people still keep him on that pedestal? When guys like Thurman, Spence, and Crawford lose, will people hold them at that pedestal? Others like Gonzalez is too early to tell, we have to see how he would look down the line (like Canelo and Lomachenko). And Santa Cruz isn't popular enough and doesn't have promising abilities in comparison to these other names to be yet considered elite.


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#104 Dolimite

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:41 PM

Canelo still gets no love
The Rodney Dangerfield of boxing. But he deserve all the criticisms for fighting an anorexia Chavez plus coming off a long lay off.




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