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Please tell me that I'm not the only one who sees this?


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#1 BrutUalBK

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 03:04 PM

There's definitely a pattern of sorts going on here in this CW fights where one fighter has to drain huge amounts of weight to get down to fighting weight and face opponents at a weight that is far more comfortable for the smaller man than it is for the bigger man.

 

Last night we witnessed a near carbon copy of how Oscar reacted when he faced Pacquiao in Chavez Jr, he was not even able to pull the trigger.  It was unreal the similarities that I saw in how he did better facing a bigger man in Fonfara than he did vs a smaller Canelo.

 

Either they put something in his food or water and made him become a pacifist or that rehydration clause ensure that the life (or at least, the fight) is sucked totally out of the bigger man in bouts.

 

Manny vs Oscar, they made sure they had a "Rehydration Clause" written in even though it was not spoken about in public because they wanted to ensure they maintain the so called "invincibility" of Pacquiao to keep the public believing that there was a reason for Floyd to fear facing him so they did not allow De la Hoya aka Fishnets to rehydrate over night which contributed massively to his lethargic behavior.

 

The shots that Canelo was landing was not able to put Chavez down no more so than Manny's was able to put Oscar down and yet both men stood and seemingly was not able to even throw shots, what kind of placebo makes one that passive??

 

Many people tried to say that Roy Jones experienced decline after coming back from HW to face Tarver but I beg to differ, Jones as never out of the fights he had with Tarver and was throwing huge shots and even combinations and yet he still got bested by Antonio and then vs Johnson.

 

How about Ward vs Dawson comes to mind, Chad had nothing in the tank and was easily beaten and beaten up by Andre who isn't even a big puncher at all.

 

Cotto was not himself when he faced Pacquiao in the CW fight as he was barely able to hurt Manny at all, in fact he never hurt him and we all know that he has power to put down guys at 160 and though he wasn't lethargic he wasn't exactly able to crack like he was accustomed to either.  In the 3rd fight between Manny and Morales, we saw how easily Erik was knocked off his feet and seemingly had nothing in his tank and simply quit without even bothering to get up (lethargic behavior) as though he had no energy left.

 

Please tell me that I'm not simply romanticizing this idea, and for the record; I picked Canelo to beat Chavez Jr (I don't even like this kid).

 

Am I the only one who sees this as a pattern?  


Edited by BrutUalBK, 07 May 2017 - 03:07 PM.

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#2 sduck

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 04:33 PM

Chavez looked pretty gunshy against Sergio Martinez as well, until the final round. Was weight also an issue then as you suggested? Chavez seems to fold up when he's faced with people that move a lot and have the punching power to hurt him.

 

Chavez let his hands go when he got close, but only when he got close. And those moments mostly looked like Canelo letting him, instead of Chavez forcing it. If anything he was just in there with a vastly superior fighter. Oscar and Dawson as you mentioned couldn't even fight at all and finish the fight. Chavez was still engaged but could only get off when the fight was in the pocket.



#3 BrutUalBK

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:47 AM

Chavez looked pretty gunshy against Sergio Martinez as well, until the final round. Was weight also an issue then as you suggested? Chavez seems to fold up when he's faced with people that move a lot and have the punching power to hurt him.

 

Chavez let his hands go when he got close, but only when he got close. And those moments mostly looked like Canelo letting him, instead of Chavez forcing it. If anything he was just in there with a vastly superior fighter. Oscar and Dawson as you mentioned couldn't even fight at all and finish the fight. Chavez was still engaged but could only get off when the fight was in the pocket.

You're making it sound as though I'm making some kind of excuse for Chavez, I don't even like him...just stating the obvious. 

 

Did Chavez look gunshy vs Fonfara or in the fights with Vera (both of them), Lee, Manfredo or Rubio??

 

He was consistently hunting Martinez down, he couldn't do that vs Canelo and that wasn't due to anything special that Saul was doing to make him not able to either.

 

Chavez Jr's lethargy could not solely be credited to Canelo's effectiveness,  something was clearly off kilter for him.

 

It's obvious when you factor in he was able to walk down, push and bully the much bigger Fonfara against the ropes whenever he wanted but seemingly unable to do the same to a much smaller Canelo.

 

Why is that??



#4 KSUN247

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 01:33 PM

Maybe, he was paid a nice lump sum, with a "wink-wink" deal already set-up for the GGG fight. I know he was drained, but the post-fight theatrics make it look like a big set-up for the September fight. They didn't want anything to derail those plans. It's not like Jr had any pride left. Maybe, his heart just isn't into boxing. I doubt we'll ever see him again on a big stage. Hence, the money grab where he didn't take too much punishment. Just a theory though. LOL!
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#5 MaxPayne

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 07:22 PM

A common criticism of MMA fighters is that they lack stamina. This is partially due to guys cutting a massive amount of weight days before the fight.

 

There are fighters who have cut as much as 20 - 25 pounds on fight week, which is horrendous when you think about it. So during the fights, they gas out super quick because the human body isn't built for that type of weight fluctuation.

 

Another aspect is when an over 30 fighter has to start cutting muscle weight. Let's analyze the Roy Jones Jr. situation.

 

In September 2002, a 33 year old RJJ fought Clinton Woods at 175 lbs.

 

Then in March 2003, a 34 year old RJJ fought John Ruiz at 193 lbs. When you look at pictures of their weigh-in and the fight itself, Jones is pretty ripped. 

 

So essentially, in less than 6 months, a 33/34 year old fighter put on 18 lbs. of muscle. This timeline has been seen as borderline preposterous, which is why many people claim RJJ was using anabolic steroids to artificially put on muscle mass.

 

In November 2003, a 34 year old RJJ goes back down to 175 lbs. to fight Antonio Tarver.

 

Here's a media quote that I found interesting:

 

  • Tim Smith of the New York Daily News reported: "He [Jones] had to lose 25 pounds to move down from heavyweight to make the 175-pound limit to face Tarver. Five days before the match, Jones weighed 183 pounds. He was gaunt and drawn at the weigh-in. He sat slumped on a stool while he waited to step on the scales. Once he climbed into the ring, Jones was drained after four rounds and survived mainly because Tarver decided to counter instead of pressing the action."

 

Now, Smith is somewhat mistaken, because his "true cut" would have been 18 lbs. to go from 193 lbs. to 175 lbs.

 

However the point remains that within a week of the Tarver fight in 2003, RJJ had only been able to cut 10 lbs. from his Ruiz fight weight. He was essentially having to cut muscle weight, which is very difficult and also takes a lot out of you from a conditioning perspective, especially past 30 years of age.

 

Past 32/33 you do have a slowdown of reflexes and speed. There is no doubt about this. The point is that RJJ's downfall in particular was accelerated not just by his aging but also by his weight fluctuation at an advanced age for a fighter. 



#6 mgrover

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 06:12 PM

honestly I think Chavez threw the fight, they didnt wanna upset the GGG vs Canelo gravy train so they paid him to shut the fuck up and do nothing.


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#7 BrutUalBK

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 09:12 PM

A common criticism of MMA fighters is that they lack stamina. This is partially due to guys cutting a massive amount of weight days before the fight.

 

There are fighters who have cut as much as 20 - 25 pounds on fight week, which is horrendous when you think about it. So during the fights, they gas out super quick because the human body isn't built for that type of weight fluctuation.

 

Another aspect is when an over 30 fighter has to start cutting muscle weight. Let's analyze the Roy Jones Jr. situation.

 

In September 2002, a 33 year old RJJ fought Clinton Woods at 175 lbs.

 

Then in March 2003, a 34 year old RJJ fought John Ruiz at 193 lbs. When you look at pictures of their weigh-in and the fight itself, Jones is pretty ripped. 

 

So essentially, in less than 6 months, a 33/34 year old fighter put on 18 lbs. of muscle. This timeline has been seen as borderline preposterous, which is why many people claim RJJ was using anabolic steroids to artificially put on muscle mass.

 

In November 2003, a 34 year old RJJ goes back down to 175 lbs. to fight Antonio Tarver.

 

Here's a media quote that I found interesting:

 

  • Tim Smith of the New York Daily News reported: "He [Jones] had to lose 25 pounds to move down from heavyweight to make the 175-pound limit to face Tarver. Five days before the match, Jones weighed 183 pounds. He was gaunt and drawn at the weigh-in. He sat slumped on a stool while he waited to step on the scales. Once he climbed into the ring, Jones was drained after four rounds and survived mainly because Tarver decided to counter instead of pressing the action."

 

Now, Smith is somewhat mistaken, because his "true cut" would have been 18 lbs. to go from 193 lbs. to 175 lbs.

 

However the point remains that within a week of the Tarver fight in 2003, RJJ had only been able to cut 10 lbs. from his Ruiz fight weight. He was essentially having to cut muscle weight, which is very difficult and also takes a lot out of you from a conditioning perspective, especially past 30 years of age.

 

Past 32/33 you do have a slowdown of reflexes and speed. There is no doubt about this. The point is that RJJ's downfall in particular was accelerated not just by his aging but also by his weight fluctuation at an advanced age for a fighter. 

Sorry but Jones' situation does not apply, Roy even weighed in in his clothes to make that 193lbs that everyone keeps quoting and his pockets had noticeable bulges in them that day, so much so that people were saying he had bricks in his pockets.

 

If Roy had looked as lethargic as Oscar and Chavez Jr and wasn't moving fast then I'd go along with making an excuse for why Roy lost to Tarver but when you add in the fact that Tarver owned him in their 2nd and 3rd fight as well as took him the distance in an arguable fight the first time then one cannot even begin to make excuses for Roy.

 

And let's not even bring in the Johnson KO, he got outworked and beaten up before being knocked out colder than he did vs Tarver.

 

Sorry but Jones just isn't a good example in this case IMHO.



#8 BrutUalBK

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 09:14 PM

honestly I think Chavez threw the fight, they didnt wanna upset the GGG vs Canelo gravy train so they paid him to shut the fuck up and do nothing.

I highly doubt that he was paid to do nothing, one thing you guys have to consider; if Chavez had fought to win and did so then he'd be the Cashcow and the next in the line for an even bigger payday with rematches between himself and Canelo and even a big money fight vs GGG.

 

It makes no sense for him to take a dive with all that money on the table with a win over Canelo.



#9 MaxPayne

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 10:26 PM

I mean, people can believe what they want. 

 

Roy Jones Jr clearly lost a step (as do all fighters) from his early 30's onwards.

 

His success was predicated largely on his physical abilities and so a decline was inevitable.

 

I am simply stating that said decline was accelerated by his jumping up and down in weight classes at an age where fighters should really try and stabilize a single weight cut regimen.


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#10 flazi

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:23 PM

you are not the only one who sees it.  It takes time for your muscles to rehyrdate.  not only do they need water back in them but there are a lot of things at the cellular level going on with ATP and glycogen that get affected.  Depending on the person and the way they lose the weight and get it back and also how much weight was lost, you will need at least 32 to 48 hours to be normal.


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