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#11 BrutUalBK

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 11:01 PM

I mean, people can believe what they want. 

 

Roy Jones Jr clearly lost a step (as do all fighters) from his early 30's onwards.

 

His success was predicated largely on his physical abilities and so a decline was inevitable.

 

I am simply stating that said decline was accelerated by his jumping up and down in weight classes at an age where fighters should really try and stabilize a single weight cut regimen.

I'm not disagreeing with you regarding cutting weight at a certain age but we didn't see any huge decline in Roy in regards to work output like we saw in Oscar, Chavez Jr and now that I think about it Chris Byrd too when he went back down from HW and looked like a skeleton of his former self.

 

Roy still had great output, fast hands.........the thing that damaged Jones was he lacked a true fundamental skillset on defense like Hopkins and Mayweather did and he was only able to get away from shots before and look impressive because of his reflexes, once they left him then we saw his flaws getting exposed more and more with the results being devastating KO's by guys like Glenn Johnson (not even a big puncher) who would've never laid a glove on Jones in Roy's prime.


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#12 mgrover

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 03:11 AM

I highly doubt that he was paid to do nothing, one thing you guys have to consider; if Chavez had fought to win and did so then he'd be the Cashcow and the next in the line for an even bigger payday with rematches between himself and Canelo and even a big money fight vs GGG.

 

It makes no sense for him to take a dive with all that money on the table with a win over Canelo.

 

I think he thinks hes cash cow either way, he doesn't care about more fights really. he just wanted a pay out which am sure he got. they picked him because they knew he wouldnt upset the apple cart.

 

And dicking around with weight is always, always a terrible idea so many have done it and been fucked cause it to name a few, Jones Jr, Traver, Hatton, Dawson etc etc


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#13 BrutUalBK

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 01:02 AM

 

I think he thinks hes cash cow either way, he doesn't care about more fights really. he just wanted a pay out which am sure he got. they picked him because they knew he wouldnt upset the apple cart.

 

And dicking around with weight is always, always a terrible idea so many have done it and been fucked cause it to name a few, Jones Jr, Traver, Hatton, Dawson etc etc

Bad examples you picked for weight issues, Tarver has always been known to walk around at about 218, that mess came out about the Rocky weight gain after he lost to Hopkins, not before.  It kinda reminded me of when Jones first lost to Tarver, he made up some excuse and blamed it on his father but notice how nothing was said before that.

Hatton was always known to walk around at 200 plus lbs so he wasn't dicking around as you put it, he just routinely blew up between bouts, his was never a matter of cutting weight, it was more like having to lose all the fat he accumulated as a result of blowing up but still that was his fault for not being disciplined enough to stay away from fattening foods and beer.  There is a difference between having to flat out lose weight as it is for cutting weight, two different processes are involved.

 

Jones had no excuses whatsoever, he stepped on the scales fully clothed for his hw fight with Ruiz and even had large objects in his pockets to give him the questionable 193 he weighed in at.  Regardless he came in the Tarver fight looking fast not lethargic like Oscar and Chavez Jr looked so his case is not the same as those.

 

I'm just tired of people giving Roy a pass on his loss to Tarver, what was his excuse in the 3rd fight?? He lost that one too, can't blame a weight cut for that.



#14 MaxPayne

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 09:15 PM

I think that the point is, Jones was declining at that stage (on top of weight fluctuations) and he was beaten by a "lesser fighter".

 

I say that because I believe that a prime, in his late 20's Roy Jones Jr. would have smoked Tarver, the same way that he smoked a young Hopkins and a young Toney, who were much, much better fighters than Tarver ever was.

 

Regardless, the fights happened and Roy lost spectacularly. Shit happens in this sport, but Roy at his peak was an incredible fighter who may well have been unbeatable due to his once-in-a-generation athleticism. 



#15 mgrover

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:08 PM

Bad examples you picked for weight issues, Tarver has always been known to walk around at about 218, that mess came out about the Rocky weight gain after he lost to Hopkins, not before.  It kinda reminded me of when Jones first lost to Tarver, he made up some excuse and blamed it on his father but notice how nothing was said before that.

Hatton was always known to walk around at 200 plus lbs so he wasn't dicking around as you put it, he just routinely blew up between bouts, his was never a matter of cutting weight, it was more like having to lose all the fat he accumulated as a result of blowing up but still that was his fault for not being disciplined enough to stay away from fattening foods and beer.  There is a difference between having to flat out lose weight as it is for cutting weight, two different processes are involved.

 

Jones had no excuses whatsoever, he stepped on the scales fully clothed for his hw fight with Ruiz and even had large objects in his pockets to give him the questionable 193 he weighed in at.  Regardless he came in the Tarver fight looking fast not lethargic like Oscar and Chavez Jr looked so his case is not the same as those.

 

I'm just tired of people giving Roy a pass on his loss to Tarver, what was his excuse in the 3rd fight?? He lost that one too, can't blame a weight cut for that.

 

Weight cutting affects fighters for good, not just for a single fight.

 

Sure Hatton did, but at some point is catches up with you don't you think? Plus am sure the cocaine didn't help

 

Tarver, clearly being 218 didnt help at all and he can down play it all he wants but he didnt just want to give Roy Jones Jr a pass for dropping the weight. My point is never that its NOT the fighters fault, no it is there fault for blowing up. But cutting lots of weight quickly does bad things to a fighter. Thats my point.

 

Clearly the weight drop affected Roy and it was a bad idea for him to try to lose that much weight on a decline.



#16 BrutUalBK

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 09:34 PM

 

Weight cutting affects fighters for good, not just for a single fight.

 

Sure Hatton did, but at some point is catches up with you don't you think? Plus am sure the cocaine didn't help

 

Tarver, clearly being 218 didnt help at all and he can down play it all he wants but he didnt just want to give Roy Jones Jr a pass for dropping the weight. My point is never that its NOT the fighters fault, no it is there fault for blowing up. But cutting lots of weight quickly does bad things to a fighter. Thats my point.

 

Clearly the weight drop affected Roy and it was a bad idea for him to try to lose that much weight on a decline.

You're confusing weight loss with cutting weight, as i stated those are two different processes.  When a fighter has excess fat then he needs to lose weight, but when he has done that and still isn't making the agreed upon weight or within or at the weight limit then a fighter has to "Cut" weight and that means cutting into muscle.

 

Hatton has never had to cut into muscle, neither has Jones (who walked around at 190 before getting to 175 all the time) which is why he didn't have the detrimental effects that both Oscar (experienced in the Pacquiao fight) and Chavez (experienced in the Canelo bout).

 

Please try to understand that these processes are different, Jones didn't have to cut muscle as he walked around at 190 and supposedly only weighed 193 for the fight with Ruiz and that was with clothes on and heavy objects in his pockets.

 

No more excuses for Jones should be tolerated, just as there were none for when Tarver (who walked around at 218 between fights) lost to Hopkins, he never cut weight, he just lost excess fat and water.



#17 mgrover

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 05:51 PM

You're confusing weight loss with cutting weight, as i stated those are two different processes.  When a fighter has excess fat then he needs to lose weight, but when he has done that and still isn't making the agreed upon weight or within or at the weight limit then a fighter has to "Cut" weight and that means cutting into muscle.

 

Hatton has never had to cut into muscle, neither has Jones (who walked around at 190 before getting to 175 all the time) which is why he didn't have the detrimental effects that both Oscar (experienced in the Pacquiao fight) and Chavez (experienced in the Canelo bout).

 

Please try to understand that these processes are different, Jones didn't have to cut muscle as he walked around at 190 and supposedly only weighed 193 for the fight with Ruiz and that was with clothes on and heavy objects in his pockets.

 

No more excuses for Jones should be tolerated, just as there were none for when Tarver (who walked around at 218 between fights) lost to Hopkins, he never cut weight, he just lost excess fat and water.

 

 Maybe you say the process aren't different, but are you telling me that a fighter, who has to cut fast FAST in comparison to before won't take off valuable muscle?



#18 BrutUalBK

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 05:25 PM

 

 Maybe you say the process aren't different, but are you telling me that a fighter, who has to cut fast FAST in comparison to before won't take off valuable muscle?

If one has to actually "Cut" fast then, yes it would be a problem but I think you're confusing losing weight and cutting weight, as I stated those are different processes.

 

Cutting weight can be done safely as long as you have enough time to properly do the process and then later rehydrate, as far as I know Roy has never had to "cut" weight quickly, he had several months to prep his body for the cut.

 

Oscar did not have time to really "cut" the weight vs Manny nor was he given the proper amount of time needed or allowed to rehydrate, same as what happened to Chavez Jr.


Edited by BrutUalBK, 10 June 2017 - 01:08 AM.


#19 mgrover

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:47 AM

If one has to actually "Cut" fast then, yes it would be a problem but I think you're confusing losing weight and cutting weight, as I stated those are different processes.

 

Cutting weight can be done safely as long as you have enough time to properly do the process and then later rehydrate, as far as I know Roy has never had to "cut" weight quickly, he had several months to prep his body for the cut.

 

Oscar did not have time to really "cut" the weight vs Manny nor was he given the proper amount of time needed or allowed to rehydrate, same as what happened to Chavez Jr.

 

Maybe Oscar wasn't to do with time but simply that he could no longer make that weight safely? Fighters can grow out of weight classes and Oscar at 145lb seemed like a terrible idea.


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#20 BrutUalBK

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:38 AM

 

Maybe Oscar wasn't to do with time but simply that he could no longer make that weight safely? Fighters can grow out of weight classes and Oscar at 145lb seemed like a terrible idea.

Oscar had grown out of WW 8 or 9 years before that which is why Arum and Manny wanted the fight at WW with the "No Rehydration Clause" we saw used on Canelo.

 

I remember back when Oscar and Manny made this fight and I told people that clauses like this existed and all they could say is "No it doesn't, you're just hating on Manny".   Well let's go back and look at the facts, Oscar was not allowed to rehydrate, I believe he didn't even step on HBO's Unofficial Scales that night (the first time he's ever did that since the fight with Floyd).

 

It's obvious that Oscar's contract was set up so that he was not even able to mention the "Rehydration Clause" but nowadays they blatantly mention these type clauses but in a clandestine way such as "There will be a million dollar penalty for every pound you go over the weight" and stuff like that so that it doesn't appear to be this dreadful clause that keeps a fighter from gaining his natural size and strength advantage in the fight.






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